Elena Davlikanova
Hello, I’m Elena Davlikanova, a Democracy Fellow with the Center for European Policy Analysis and welcome to “Understanding Ukraine”, a series of conversations with Ukrainian decision makers, opinion leaders and experts that focuses on a variety of topics, to better understand Ukraine, its current war against Russia, the future of the Ukrainian people, and Ukraine’s relationships with partners and allies. And it is my honor today to have this conversation with Yaroslav Yurchyshyn, a Ukrainian MP, the Holos Party, and First Deputy Chairman of the Commission on Anti Corruption Policies. Thank you very much Yaroslav for joining us today and we will be talking about Ukraine’s anti corruption efforts. So my first question to you will be as follows. For a long time, in the West, Ukraine was synonymous with corruption. In 2022, it rated 118 out of 180 countries on the Transparency International Anti Corruption Perception Index. And since even before the war, Ukraine has invested a lot in preventing corruption in fighting corruption. So how fair is the perception of Ukraine as a symbol of corruption?
Yaroslav Yurchyshyn
It’s not fair, I don’t know nation, which, in full scale war aggression, will still fight with corruption, and show even better result. For example, in Corruption Perception Index, as Ukraine, if we analyze leaders, if we take a long period, for example, 10 years is quite long period for human beings. But still, it’s a very short period in history of nation, Ukraine show a prominent result because we add more than six point, we receive additionally, six point in Corruption Perception Index better as only a few countries, for example, Italy, Greece, which have slightly more than 10, Romania which have 10. So Ukraine, not only still fighting with corruption in periods of war, but have good result, you will, and full working anti-corruption infrastructure, which think for our Western alliance, we launched after revolution on dignity, and now this infrastructure show good result, and I hope in the near future, even better.
Elena Davlikanova
Thank you very much. You mentioned this whole anti-corruption infrastructure built in Ukraine after 2014. How do you assess effectiveness and what is being done currently to prevent misuse of current spendings of Ukraine’s budget also of the international aid, and also private investors money?
Yaroslav Yurchyshyn
On anti-corruption infrastructure, if its, its infrastructure we’ll show the same result or even better result in the future. We can be 100 sure that misusing of budget or private money which come to Ukraine as investation will not happen in general. Why I can say that, because now we see that in Ukraine, we don’t have any untouchable governance even in time of war we see a investigation and even jailed, Deputy Head of Ministry of Occupied Territory for this, forr example, or several judges, different different level of our judiciary system. And yes, a lot of this investigation was started with information of our businesses, not only Ukrainian, but international businesses, which are worked in Ukraine and still working even in time of war and the high level of transparency and accountability, the high level of standards at Western businesses causes collaboration with our infrastructure in anti-corruption infrastructure. Due to that, yes, we working, we work a lot to create a more transparent accountable system for all Ukraine, for tackle with some misuse of money which can come as for rebuilding and still yes, our anti-corruption infrastructure one of the main point of this work.
Elena Davlikanova
While you once said that Western allies understand Ukraine is fighting two wars, or one against Russia and another one is internal, and it is for the future of Ukraine, and it is against corruption. However, this year started with a huge scandal, corruption scandal, and this made a minority of American decision makers to address Biden’s administration saying that the amount of support to Ukraine should be limited. So my question to you, if they were listening to us, what would you tell them?
Yaroslav Yurchyshyn
First of all, we must understand why, now, we have a lot of cases before we don’t have it previously. So really, only two years ago, when we launch high anti-corruption court, we start to fight with corruption in proper way. But still war starting, many cases was not stopped, but in such period of time frozen. And when our army deliberate key region and nearest region, they its cases start again, because of that, yes, we have result now. And it’s create, like a vision that wow, Ukraine become even more corrupted in this way. But it’s not. Now we have results, because of that we see these cases, because of that we have, we see jailed high level governance, and you don’t see that in Russia, in below Russia, in our totalitarian country. So what they can, they command to our, to our colleagues from Western businesses private and not only private firms, or some investors invest in Ukraine, we have possibility to tackle with corruption, we have possibility to save your money for misused or by some unclear and of post Soviet governance, but still what we need it’s collaboration with our investigators, when somebody try to bribe you, try to push you to give something unfair, only work use this information for our anti corruption infrastructure. And they really finds a way how to solve this problem, in in in a measure of our law system. Yes, we will have some problem and still had it in in our Ukraine, why because our democracy, it’s not democracy of USA with 100 years of process. We with democracy in transition, but we democracy which even in wartime fighting with corruption and have appropriate result somebody’s this result, create perception that corruption are become even more highest will ever be granted we have previously. But it’s result, it’s it’s more symptom that we become more healthy, and our democracy have results in fighting with corruption.
Elena Davlikanova
I hope that American and worldly investors will hear your advice and would invest in Ukraine and its reconstruction. And my final question to you is as follows. How do you see the future of Ukraine?
Yaroslav Yurchyshyn
We can say that we will be democracy, part of the Western world, we is but still not like officially. I think in the nearest future we win this war, not only we as Ukrainians, but we as the Western alliance with Ukraine and Ukraine will be in European Union, we in Western cycle of ways because of that. We will be when we must be in for for our mentality, for our values.
Elena Davlikanova
Thank you very much for your time. Thank you for watching this episode of “Understanding Ukraine”. If you’re interested in our work, please visit cepa.org
