Sam Greene
Good afternoon from London. Good morning to Washington DC and to Kyiv and Odessa and around Ukraine. Welcome to the Center for European Policy Analysis. My name is Sam Green and it’s my distinct honor and distinctly solemn honor to welcome you to CEPA today. Russia’s war on Ukraine began 10 years ago, a fact that Vladimir Putin unashamedly marked just the other day with a rally on Red Square in Moscow. Russia’s illegal occupation and seizure of Crimea in February and March of 2014 marked the beginning of a war of Imperial reacquisition. The global implications of which should now be clear to all of us, but which were abundantly clear to Ukrainians a decade ago. Today, Crimea serves not only as a military base for attacks on mainland Ukraine, but also as a hub for the illegal transfer and detention of civilian hostages, and a base for which to try to dominate the Black Sea, global shipping, hunger, and the food system. The number of political prisoners in Crimea has soared to more than 200, of whom more than 60% are Crimea Tatars. Crimean resistance persists too however. Some tie yellow ribbons of solidarity across the landscape, others clandestinely relay information to the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Today’s conversation is dedicated to the premise that the end of Russia’s war ought to begin where the war itself started in Crimea. This sometimes feels an unpopular notion in Washington and in many European capitals, which is all the more reason I think to delve into it as deeply as we can. We will explore today strategies for liberating the Peninsula, for its reintegration into Ukraine, for the restoration of the Democratic franchise sovereignty and human rights, and for Western support in all of these causes. I’m honored now to hand the floor to my colleague Elina Beketova, one of our Ukrainian democracy fellows at CEPA and herself or Crimean, to introduce today’s panelists and to moderate our discussion.
Elina Beketova
Thank you so much, Sam, for opening remarks and starting what promises to be a great discussion today. Good morning to those of you who are joining us from Washington. Good afternoon and good evening to those joining from Europe and the other places in the world. My name is Elina Beketova. I am a democracy fellow here at the Center for European Policy Analysis CEPA. 10 years ago in 2014, Russia seized Crimea following Ukraine’s Revolution of Dignity. Moscow deployed soldiers in uniform without identifying marks WTO agreement to seize control of government buildings and military bases, despite denying involvement shortly after the stage to sham referendum, violating international law, and receiving no recognition from the global community. Following the votes, Russian forces started replacing Ukrainian institutions and cracking down on dissent. Since the full scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Crimea has not only been a launching pad for attacks on mail in Ukraine, but yeah, I agree with Sam it has also become a hub for the illegal transfer and detention of civilian hostages. Today’s conversation is an attempt to look at the next decade. We don’t know when Crimea will be liberated, but only with Crimea under Ukraine’s control will the mainland be safe as well as the security of other European countries and the Black Sea region. Today we will discuss not only the strategies for liberating the Crimea, but also how to reclaim people’s minds, to win their hearts, and counter Russian narratives and myths. To discuss it I’m delighted to welcome our four incredible experts: David Kramer, the Executive Director of the George Bush Institute, Alena Lunova Advocacy Director Zima Human Rights Center, Denys Sienik Deputy Chief of Mission Embassy of Ukraine to the United States, Maria Tomak Head of the Crimea Platform Department, Mission of the President of Ukraine in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea. Hello to everyone. And thank you so much for joining us. Before we delve into our discussion on strategies and challenges, I like to ask you a very brief question. What is the biggest lesson you have learned during these years of the illegal annexation of Crimea, that interferes now with its liberation? Maria, let’s start with you.
Maria Tomak
Thank you. And thank you, first of all, for having me here and having this important discussion. So I will try to be brief, I would just say that in the case of Russia, the thing that triggers the escalation, it’s not the weakness and not the attempts to a peace, but the power and the demonstration of force.
Elina Beketova
Thank you so much. Alena
Alena Lunova
Hello for everyone, and thank you for the invitation and for holding this really important event. For me as a Crimean. The invasion and the occupation of my home is, taking a good lesson that we need to be really far from Russia, and we need to understand who is our enemy and how how close can be the enemy. And also, we need to understand that the links, the communication, and connections of those who are living on the occupied territories is quite important for the state and for the future of the Ukrainian territory.
Elina Beketova
Thank you so much, Mr. Kramer.
David J. Kramer
Elina, thank you. And let me just say it’s a real honor for me to be here with this very distinguished panel. And I salute them for everything they are doing for Ukraine and for liberating Crimea, as well as part of Ukraine. I would say, building off of what both Maria and Alena both said, making concessions, sacrificing land, also means sacrificing people. And that should be unacceptable today, 70 years ago, whatever date you want to attach to this, Crimea is part of Ukraine. It should remain part of Ukraine, Russia recognized it as part of Ukraine. And that position should not be changed. I’ll just briefly say I gave a talk recently here in Dallas, I’m based in Dallas, Texas, about the situation than arguing for support for Ukraine. And a woman came up to me afterwards and said, she is both of Ukrainian and Russian descent. And she liked very much what I said. And then she came back to me and whispered, please don’t push on Crimea. And I said, I’m sorry, our conversation is over. Crimea is very much a part of the situation. And neither I nor any supporter of Ukraine should be willing to sacrifice it and the people who are there as well. Thanks.
Elina Beketova
Thank you so much, Mr. Kramer and Mr. Sienik over to you.
Denys Sienik
Thank you so much, Elina. Well, thank you, first of all, for having us all here and for keeping the Crimea issue high on the agenda. That’s exactly what we need as we have entered the 10th year of the illegal annexation. Thank you for doing that. I think that the biggest lesson we all, including our international partners, have learned is that Crimea is Ukraine, no matter what Russia does. Freedom and democracy can only succeed if Ukraine liberates all its territory. And the brutal war, as David said, which is currently ongoing against Ukraine, was born by Russian, precisely when it felt that the world could, felt that it would turn the blind eye on the aggression and such crimes against international law and human rights that Russia is committing, and the international in decisiveness to and indecisive reaction to the events of 2014 became an existential issue now, not only for Ukraine, but for the whole world. And what interferes with the liberation of Crimea is that we need more weapons for Ukraine more sanctions for Russia to reduce its military capabilities so that we are able to liberate Ukraine and the rest of Ukraine, liberate Crimea and the rest of Ukraine from Russian occupiers.
Elina Beketova
Thank you so much, Mr. Sienik. I’m sure we’ll circle back to a lot of what you have just said. I’d like to start with the strategy of self liberation and why it’s important. As you know, in March 2021, Ukraine adopted its first strategy for the occupation of Crimea, featuring 97 strategic steps toward reclaiming the peninsula’s freedom. Then in April 2023, last year, the plan was updated. Why was it important? Because it gives a signal that Kyiv is focused on liberation and has a strategy when this day will come. So that is why I would like to turn over to Maria right now, as the Crimea platform has been actively focusing on strategies for the occupation, including the latest one known as the strategy of cognitive deoccupation. Actually, I got the copy when I was in Kyiv last year. Could you please provide us with a brief overview of this strategy and explain its significance in terms of consequences? Because it touches such important issues as bringing back the Ukrainian language gradually, and the work of public servants. Because we understand if Crimea has been under illegal occupation for 10 years, there are a lot of consequences. So the question is, how Ukraine will tackle them?
Maria Tomak
Yes thank you. And I would like to start by saying that for many people, it may seem too early or too optimistic for us now to develop the strategies of the reintegration of Crimea, whilst our offensive operation is maybe not so successful as we all hoped for. But we just don’t stop with this because we also understand how many work are we are going to have ahead of us, when Crimea will deoccupied. So something that we call next day after the deoccupation. And the challenges that we’re going to face and those tasks are going to be huge. So therefore, we start to think about that now, and there is a way I mean, a bunch of different strategies that we work upon, and that we developed already. It’s related to some of them that are related to economy, more, some of them related to the governance. And I’m glad that Alena is here because she’s a very active partner of our institutions, from the side of the civil society, to work upon the strategies and to coordinate basically this work on behalf of civil society. And also this strategy that you mentioned, which is about the cognitive deoccupation now. What’s in the center of it is our understanding that one of the biggest challenge, challenges that we’re going to have, and one of the biggest harms that Russia is doing now to the Crimean Peninsula is the the way that they work with the public conscious, I would say right. So with with the minds of people, so the level of disinformation, the level of propaganda, I would not even call it a propaganda because it’s not. This word is not serious enough, like brainwashing, the militarization of minds. So that’s the least that we have. But what is linked to that is the education system, which is totally militarized, and totally filled up with the Russian narratives that are related not only to the current situation, but to the Russian view of the whole Ukrainian history and Ukrainian idea which is boiled down to the fact that according to Russia, Ukraine should not exist. So that’s what’s been installed in people’s minds. But of course, it’s about the memory, the memory policy, also, it’s about the work with the youth. It’s about the language, as you said, and you know, when when it comes to this very sensitive issues, because we’re talking about the like, the minds of the people. It’s very, I believe sensitive, because we’re not one would not want to talk about some sort of social engineering on the side of Ukraine. Of course, that’s why we came up with some principles, like principles and approaches, which are the pillars of the strategy, which should be the pillars of the strategy. And the first one is actually human rights and freedoms that should be in the center of our thinking, and our approaches to this issue, and the transitional, transitional justice principles which are also inherited, somehow in the new UN documents and UN system. It’s the transparent decision making process, and some other principles. But I would like to focus this human rights issues in the first place. But of course, I should say that it’s really hard to now to come up with the full list of these priorities or these topics that we need to work upon. And we all the time, find some new angles that were not covered previously. For instance, the religious rights because and it’s a very complicated and sensitive issue, because we all understand that on one side, Russia now persecutes the Muslim population in Crimea, Crimean Tatars that was mentioned today already. On the other hand, there they build the huge mosque. And that’s sometimes confuses people, they think that it means that Russia respects Islam, or supports the diversity, religious diversity, which is not not the case. And of course, it’s very much supportive of the Russian Orthodox Church. In the meantime, Ukrainian Orthodox, Orthodox Church being just squeezed out from the Crimea completely now. And they have no churches there, and no priests, etc, etc. So and also one of the very important issues now and since currently, I’m in the working trip in Southeast Asia, and that’s something that popped up just today during our meetings is the issue of repatriation of the cultural heritage. That is the process that started since 1970s, right, when the decolonization process was ongoing, in many countries of this region. But it’s ongoing now. So now, like, for all these years, this process is ongoing. And we will have some day something similar with Russia. And maybe it’s high time also now to think, what approaches can be used and principles applied, because we all know also, that Russia just looting the huge amount of cultural heritage from the occupied territories. And that’s also one of the questions that we’re going to face and we will have to answer someday. So they do, what they would like to say and point out in the first place that we’re working upon the strategies, we engage international experts also not only Ukrainian ones. And by the way, recently, one of the US experts also reached out to us, saying that he wants to volunteer in the future, once Crimea is liberated and to come to help to restore Ukrainian governance there. And also the human resources that you mentioned. It’s not actually the matter of the cognitive deoccupation, but it’s the other issue. But we work upon it now. And we engage in this work, national universities, I mean, public educational institutions, but also private business schools. So we use also different approaches, because we would need like 1000s, literally of people who are going to, who we’re going to rely on, Ukrainian state is going to rely when we’re going to make this reintegration process happen.
Elina Beketova
Thank you so much, Maria. That’s a lot to think about. That’s a lot, that’s a lot of food for brains. You know, because we understand that we will, Ukraine will have to tackle a lot of challenges and you have just listed some of them. It’s just sometimes I get here some questions like in DC, we will understand that the peninsula has been under occupation for 10 years right now. And people don’t speak for instance, Ukrainian or there are people who are neutral, how to win their hearts and minds. I would like to turn over to Alena right now, because you are definitely working a lot on very sensitive discussions right now in terms of, for those people who are staying on the peninsula, they have some concerns because they are afraid if Ukraine regains control, then something will happen to them. Then we have an internal discussion within Ukraine, who is a collaborator who is not a collaborator, how to bring those people all together. So it’s, if you can just tell us a few concerns and how you’re gonna, how what is your vision to tackle all these challenges? I will I will be very grateful for that.
Alena Lunova
Thank you for the question. Actually, it’s really important, how we can address the request from the Crimeans to the government actually what, what next, what we will have after the occupation territory? So but I want to start with the point that we do not have, you know, instrument of studying public opinion on the temporarily occupied territories, because the occupation authorities creates such an atmosphere of fear and distrust on the peninsula, that it’s impossible to hope that somebody gives you an honest answer. For the question about, for example, what your attitudes towards Ukraine, for example, a future inside the Ukraine after reintegration or restoration of the authorities of Ukraine and the territory opinions. So that’s why we can just analyze some requests for us, some questions which have been addressed to the human rights defenders, and also the different NGOs who work with with Crimean topics, or have been working since 2014, since the very beginning of the occupation. And what I can say that after the start of the large scale invasion Crimeans began to communicate more, to ask questions. What will happen if and when you can regains control of the peninsula? Will the Ukrainian authorities have some kinds of questions to former officials of the occupied authorities or people who did business during the occupation? What will happen to teachers? What will happen to documents? So those questions that really not even really complicated. And in general, I could single out two key questions, what a large number of Crimeans have in the context of the occupation of the peninsula: whatever we will be able to have a source of income, so ability to work, receiving the pension, for example, a social protection, and what will happen to our property? So this the question of main, concerning the collaboration, he asked this question and liability, it’s also on the table. But I believe it’s not the you know, key questions. Key questions for you, Crimeans because most number of those who are living in the temporary occupied territories of Crimea didn’t collaborate or do not collaborating right now, with the occupied authorities. That’s why there are really concerning, some really easy some, you know, usual questions about their future. And so we can understand it without any poll that there is a request. And so what do we need to have this answer? Yes, of course. Do we have this answer for the question, which we’re receiving from the Crimeans right now? Not now, because right now, we have some experts, discussion, and we have some decisions which we can recommend to the government, but it’s we’re not we’re not in the place when this is became the part of the state policy. But it’s also it’s okay, right now, because we need to create, really fair answer for this question. Now, now, we are on the stage where on the stage of of discussion, and here, I would like to thank to the Mission, the President of Ukraine in Crimea, because they are really viable partners in this work. And they provide the, you know, the place the platform for discussion for national and both international experts to create, for example, the document which called the occupied Crimea priority steps for the state, because this is experts position, but also, part of those of those ideas and proposals will be included in the state policy. We will hope for that because, obviously, the solutions, which have been developed by the experts need to become the part of the state strategy. So it’s important to be included in this state authority, agenda, government, and parliamentary agenda. And right now on the on the stage of the Ministry of Integration, we tried to create this whole strategy for restoration of the public authorities, and also the reintegration of the deoccupied territories, including Crimea. But Crimea is really important part of the strategy and it has some special steps for reintegration of Crimea. But what also I want to provide that right now we’re working and now working on what will happen after the occupation. But we need to also take into account what would have happened with the goals right now. What we have right now. Right now, right now Crimeans are really blocked from Ukrainian NGOs, from Ukrainian authorities because Russia tried to block Crimea polling. And the website of Ukrainian is being blocked. Our citizens in Crimea may be subject of criminal prosecution just because of some blue and yellow ribbon or, I don’t know some some sign which can connect them to Ukrainian. So understanding the situation we as a state should think about supporting and creating new connections with Cremeans via reintegration program, via educational program via some steps towards them. And then reintegration is not a matter of sanctity and it is a matter of state policy, including the actual security policy. And I’m sure that the clearer the future is for Ukraine, for Ukrainians in Crimea, the faster and easier the occupation will be.
Elina Beketova
Thank you so much Alena. And I’d like to focus right now on the situation on the peninsula because you have said that definitely the situation with, for instance, political prisoners in Crimea has become worse. There are nearly 200 cases of unjust imprisonment including 123, Crimean Tatars. I would like to turn here to Mr. Kramer and ask what obstacles hinder Ukraine from liberating the peninsula and gaining maximum support, and touching the issue of political prisoners. As a mention to Iryna Danylovych a Crimean human rights defender in prison for seven years on charges of alleged illegal possession of explosives? Are there any effective mechanisms in place to gain access there to the peninsula a lot because we understand that we are talking about Crimea right now and no one has any access there right now unfortunatly.
David J. Kramer
No, that’s very true Elina and of course, our session today is on the 10th anniversary of the illegal annexation of Crimea by Russia. But this year is also the 80th anniversary of the deportation of roughly 200,000 Crimean Tatars to Central Asia, mostly to Uzbekistan where half at least of those were killed on the way or once they reached the abysmal conditions that they were kept in. And were only allowed to return some four decades later and even that journey was very arduous for many Crimean Tartaros. So this is a campaign that has been underway for decades by Soviet authorities and now by Russian authorities to wipe out Crimean Tatar identity and to wipe out Crimean identity. And so I think we have to keep in mind that this is not just a new phenomenon in the past decade. This has been going on for decades. Just as as Russian interference in Ukraine has been going on for a long time. It was the invasion that started in 2014. But Putin’s interference in Ukraine’s domestic affairs going back to the 2004 election, where he tried to support Yanukovych and prop him up, all of these historical datelines are very important to keep in mind when we talk about the situation today. It’s also important to remember, by the way, that Russia after the breakup of the Soviet Union recognize Crimea as being part of Ukraine. In with the breakup of the Soviet Union in the 1997 Ukraine-Russian Friendship Treaty in the Budapest Memorandum, where Ukraine relinquished its nuclear weapons in exchange for recognition of its sovereignty and territorial integrity. And that, of course, included Crimea. So when people today talk about well, maybe we can help Ukraine regain control of parts of the east but Crimea is a different matter. Well, Crimea is not a different matter. It is part of Ukraine. It is an integral part of Ukraine. And again, as I said at the beginning, for those particularly in the West, who want to appease and accommodate Putin and the Kremlin, they also were prepared to consign millions of Ukrainians to living under Russian repression. And that’s what you are getting at Elina with your question talking about political prisoners and Alena and Maria, were talking about this as well. The way to deal with this, I would argue and, Denys was getting at this and his initial comments, is to help Ukraine win this war. It pains me to see the delay in the US Congress in approving support for Ukraine. Ukraine desperately needs the support in order to regain control of all of its territory, in order for it to have a chance of achieving victory. And I define victory by the following. It means Ukraine regains control over all of its territory, including Crimea. I’m also tired of having to say including Crimea, because that should be obvious to everyone. Of course, it includes Crimea. It also means accountability for Russia war crimes and crimes against humanity and genocide, and that includes those that have been committed in Crimea. It also means I would argue, moving from freezing to seizing Russian assets in order to compensate Ukraine will provide the funds whatever it deems necessary, so that Russia does not regain the $300 billion that it foolishly left in the West at the start of the invasion, full-scale invasion in February of 2022. The situation you mentioned with Iryna Danylovych. This is absolutely something that I have been able to participate in thanks to Iryna and the Embassy in Washington, and the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry in establishing a kind of pen pal relationship, and I have just started this with arena by sending her a note, I hope it reaches her. And it is, I think, a terrific initiative, so that people who are being held in these appalling conditions. And she obviously does not belong in a Russian prison where she is now held, let alone in a prison in Crimea, in Crimea. But Iryna very briefly and reporting on Russian abuses and Crimea, being a citizen journalist, then violated according to Russia it’s ridiculous laws. She does not belong in jail, she deserves to be free. But being able to send these kinds of notes and letters, whether it’s from me or anyone else, is an important way to signal to people who are being held in these appalling conditions that the world has not forgotten them. That we remember who they are, that there is a human face behind all of these numbers. And so I would encourage other people to the extent that they can to participate in these kinds of of initiatives to reach out send notes and letters to people who are being unfairly and unjustly held in prison, so that they understand that the world is watching, that the world is paying attention. Soviet dissidents, Soviet prisoners used to talk about how important this was when they would either hear on shortwave radio or receive letters that people were paying attention to their situation. And that remains the case. And it’s a reminder of how fascist and totalitarian the Russian situation is today. And no one should want people in Crimea or any other part of Ukraine to have to live under that kind of control.
Elina Beketova
Well, and thank you so much, Mr. Kramer, and we hope that definitely all the political prisoners in Crimea will be released and all the current situations with lack of access will be stopped because it shouldn’t be definitely happening in the 21st century. But I would like to go back to Mr. Sienik, because Maria Tomak has just remembered about the case of the American diplomat, who asked about the possibility to work on the peninsula once it’s liberated. So Mr. Sienik, my question to you is, do you see any interest from your colleagues from other countries, not only to discuss the liberation of Crimea, but also to actively participate in initiatives and potentially visit Crimea in the future when it’s liberated? How can we ramp up the interest despite limited or zero access right now to the peninsula?
Denys Sienik
Thank you so much, Elina, for for this question, which is so important. Let me first thank David, for everything you do, in support of prisoners of Kremlin. No, I completely agree with you. In this situation, when there is a complete lack of access to the peninsula from from anyone, foreign governments, international organizations, NGOs, the messages our political prisoners receive from the people like you are, is most likely the only way for them to feel that support and to know that they are not left alone, in addition to what our government and our partners are doing. Please keep doing that. I sincerely thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you and all, everyone who spares no efforts to do work for the release of Ukrainian political prisoners and supporting them at the time when we are working to release them. I’m sure that that moment will come. All I just wish that they stay strong and healthy, and, and wait for the moment when it happens. Elina, you know, if we recall the discussions of ways to liberate Crimea back in 2014, you perfectly remember that the words and position of the international community was quite different. And whether it was the fear of possible escalation from the side of Putin or whatever. But since that time, their position, the position of the international community, has gone drastic changes. Which is a clear evidence that there is a clear interest from, from our partners and, and their readiness to work on the issue. And the just the example the number of countries participating in the Crimea platform, and their active participation mode speaks for itself. We, in the political dimension, we conducted three leader summits of the Crimea platform since 2021, two parliamentary summits of the Crimea platform, and we are preparing the second Black Sea Security Conference in Sofia in Bulgaria on April 15, the security dimension of the Crimea platform. So and the number of countries and international organization participating in this format is only growing, which is so important. And in addition to that, we have a robust expert network that Maria is working actively with, in support of the Crimea platform. And yes, the reality is that Crimea’s the gray zone, and there is no access to international missions to the peninsula. And that is why I think that the format of the Crimea platform is even more important because it allows us to, to present an exchange information about the situation on the peninsula. And we have means of how and from where to get this information, though, it’s quite difficult, but we, we do that. And but of course, like in the current realities, we perfectly understand that the isolation of Crimea and the reduction of Russian military capabilities in the region are like important extremely important for for Ukraine’s victory strategy and the speed of have any success will depend on the on the military assistance from Western partners to Ukraine. And, for example, a long range cruise missiles with the ability to reach infrastructure objects and military objects of Russian’s in occupied Crimea would be a game changer, you know. Just let alone to destroy the Kerch bridge, and would effectively isolate Crimea from Russia and disrupted the military transportations. And, and we have shown already that it is possible we we have shown that the Russian Black Sea Fleet is not invincible anymore. We destroyed 1/3 of the Russian Black Sea Fleet. All we need is just to further get all the necessary support just all the necessary tools to liberate Crimea and but at the same time, there is still much work to be done. And I’m not talking talking only about geopolitical aspects. We still witnessed multiple cases of Crimea being marked as disputed territory or claimed by Ukraine on maps and newspapers on online or television. And just for example, the National Geographic which still depicts Crimea as a disputed territory, I do hope it will change and just today I have read on the website or Facebook page of my foreign ministry, good news that one of the authors of the children literature in from the United Kingdom acknowledged his mistake by illustrating the maps for children of Ukraine without Crimea and the parts of Odessa region and he will change it and finally, the audience will not be misled. We have to continue, like when the case is like that as well. It’s not only about politics, it’s also like it’s also, it’s a broader issue. We have to continue working with the expert community as well and, and thank you for your attention to this matter. And it is obvious for us that, you know, if we all reduce our pace, like the overall pace will automatically decrease. So that is why we continue doing what we are doing. But it is obvious that without support of our partners, international partners and disparate experts, leading experts like you are, it will be very hard to achieve our goals. But definitely we can see a drastic change to compare with 2014. All we just need is not to forget about Crimea and keep on doing what we are doing. Thank you.
Elina Beketova
Thank you so much, Mr. Sienik. And I think that our discussion is very important in terms of understanding for different audiences what is going on right now with Crimea, and what strategies Ukraine has, and the the wool world in terms of regaining control over Crimea, because, well, there are questions. Sometimes someone might ask what will happen to Crimean’s living on the peninsula? Ukraine can’t jail all of them put in jail all of them. Of course, Ukraine is not going to do it, because that’s not the goal. Not everyone were collaborating with Russian forces, were working in the administrations. Someone may ask, what is the problem with the Russian-Ukrainian language? Everyone understands that there are a lot of Russian programs right now. So people didn’t have any opportunities to learn the Ukrainian language. But it is it doesn’t mean that there are no programs right now for Crimean’s, where they can actually learn the language and then when the access is back, then they will be able to learn the language again. And with the programs that Mr. Sienik told us about and Maria Tomak for public servants, basically preparing people for going there to the peninsula and working there. That’s, that’s something that has already been done in terms of that day when Ukraine regains control. And there will be one difference that all the other nations or the other people from other countries will have this access to the peninsula, because right now, it’s definitely not even the gray zone. It’s like a black box, we all understand it. But right now, I think that the more people will, will explain what will be happening on the peninsula. The last, the concern will be from other from all other audiences. So that is why Maria, I would like to turn over to you how do you counter narratives, for instance, suggestion that Ukraine will allegedly evict ethnic Russians, once Crimea is reclaimed by Ukraine? How do you communicate that Ukraine will follow the rule of law? How do you work with this myths that are being spread by the Russian propaganda in order to intimidate Crimeans living on the peninsula and the whole world?
Maria Tomak
Thank you, of course, to counter, counter narratives inside Crimea now, it’s like not an easy task because Russia is fully taken under the control all the informational space, I would say. But still, our citizens managed to get the information out from from from the, from the free world, I would say, via telegram channels via like other resources that are available to them. And so for us, it’s very important to explain not only to our citizens that live in Crimea, but also to the international community, because we all understand that Russia is aiming its propaganda and its manipulations not only to the people that they have control over in the occupied territories, but also, they kind of trying to confuse, to manipulate the public opinion and around the globe. And one of the narratives that they try to push is that Ukraine is going to do some ethnic cleansing in the occupied Crimea. And I would like, of course, to emphasize here that, of course, it’s not the case and we will have to overcome the consequences of the colonization because Russia brought after 2014 at least half a million of its citizens illegally to Crimea. Given that the number the general number of population in Crimea before the occupation was 2.3 million, you can imagine that this number is huge. And of course, Ukraine will have to deal with this, but certainly be absolutely in line with international law. And we have a separate part of the strategy dealing with this. I would not like to now to focus on this. But we worked upon this part of the strategy together with the prominent international, prominent experts Ukrainian on the international law, so of course it it won’t be something that Russia is doing, obviously. But I would like just if you allow me just very briefly to touch upon to other issues that that are really important, first of all, just to echo what Mr. Kramer was saying, as well as Mr. Sienik. And I will also like we’re all thanking each other. And I would also like to thank to Mr. Kramer for being so outspoken in support of Ukrainian territory integrity, because it’s, you can see that not so often people are so much supportive of it, especially on the Crimean topic, which perceived by many as some sort of controversial. And I would like to comment on that separately. But just to support that call on to the US to continue to support Ukraine to, to support with in terms of military means, I would like to say that if you look at the resistance movement now in Crimea that was also mentioned today, like the yellow ribbon, but that’s that’s not that that’s not the only one existed in Crimea. Throughout the previous two years, we have seen at least seven hundred of cases, when people were persecuted by occupying authorities for expressing their support to mainland Ukraine. And when we try to analyze what triggers that waves of support, we have seen that people were triggered by the violence that Russia was showing in the mainland Ukraine, like Bucha, opinion, zoom, they were triggered by the very fact in the beginning of the beginning of the beginning of the full scale invasion. But now what triggers this resistance movement is the fact that Ukraine is successful in the Black Sea region. So that we managed to make Russia withdraw their fleet. And it is done by the efforts of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, but with the support of the Western supplied weapons. So and I would like to just emphasize this fact that how inspiring it seems to our citizens in Crimea, and they are ready to oppress more, and they’re ready to support Ukraine more in our fight against the occupying forces when they see that Ukraine has been supported also by the Western countries, especially in terms of the military. And just very last thing, indeed, we need the cognitive deoccupation, not only of the minds of our people in the occupied territories, but we need to the cognitively deoccupy also the perception of Crimea worldwide, because Crimea is still being percepted via Russian Imperial lens. And that’s a huge problem that also contributes to this, I would say, a bit hesitation when it comes to this full support of Ukraine to liberate all the territories. Thank you.
Elina Beketova
Thank you so much, Maria. Very valuable insights. Mr. Kramer, I want to just ask you, given your extensive background in human rights and democracy, including your role as Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs, how is it possible to preserve the identity of Crimeans amid the ongoing threat from Russia, and definitely we will have Ukraine will have a lot of consequences of decolonization by Russia. So how, what strategies can bolster their Ukrainian and Crimean Tatar identities? And are there any global mechanisms available to support them?
David J. Kramer
The best way, quite bluntly, is to help Ukraine win this war and regain control over all of its territory. It will then take a long time to recover from the terrible devastation caused by Russia, not just in Crimea, but in other parts of Ukraine. The additional problem in Crimea, and we see some of this in the Donbass region as well, is the influx of hundreds of thousands of Russians who have either been enticed to move into Crimea and take over homes and other places in the peninsula, tricked into doing it, or have gone willingly as part of the Russian campaign to take over Crimea. What you do with those individuals who have come from Russia into Ukraine via Crimea is going to be a big challenge for not just Ukraine, but for the international community. But they are not there legally. They had been brought there by an occupying force. And so their removal, I think, will be a key part of recovering Ukrainian in Crimean identity and once once Ukraine is liberated from Russian occupying forces. So it will take a long time. And I don’t think we should fool ourselves into thinking that the minute Ukraine, and Crimea as part of Ukraine, are liberated the situation will turn around. It won’t move that quickly. But there is nothing that will succeed like victory for Ukraine. And it will require military victory of Ukraine over Russia, which means Russian defeat for what it has done. Maria just mentioned, the Black Sea Fleet. And I think this is such an important point, that there is a tendency, the narrative in the West is that Ukraine is now losing. Ukraine has taken out more than a third of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet capability. It has destroyed roughly a half of Russia’s conventional Armed Forces capability. Ukraine is developed incredibly impressive drone capabilities domestically. And Ukraine has restored the export corridor, and now this is not from Crimea, but through Odessa to ensure critically important exports of Ukrainian goods to the rest of the world. Ukraine is a major exporter of food and agricultural products. Ukraine has achieved enormous success so far and regain more than 50% of the territory that Russia conquered. But Ukraine is in desperate need of ammunition of longer range missiles, of missile defense systems as we see continued Russian bombardment Imagine what Ukraine could achieve if the West provided the military means to help it achieve that victory. And that’s why this delay in the Congress is so incredibly painful and deadly to watch. Every day that goes by that the Congress does not approve this aid means more unnecessary Ukrainian deaths. And so there is an urgency to help Ukraine so they can achieve victory. And that includes restoring control of a Crimea and helping Crimeans regain their identity as part of Ukraine.
Elina Beketova
Thank you so much, Mr. Kramer, just flagging that we’ll have 10 minutes left, but we have two speakers. And then closing remarks. Alena I would like to ask you in terms of Crimean identity, because as a person from Crimea, you definitely know and, you know, well, the Crimea and identity what it means, because there are a lot of myths about Crimean’s. That allegedly, they speak only Russian language, and they are like Russians, but we understand it’s not true. And you said that the main thing for a lot of residents, even with the idea of gaining control by Ukraine is just what will happen to their property and whether they will have a source of income. Could you please tell about these myths and how to combat them.
Alena Lunova
Of course, Russia installed different needs to the population of Crimea, and not just for Crimeans, also for their own population, about Crimea and about, you know, Crimea as part of Russia Empire before and about the mistake that the Russia or SSR did, taking or giving territory of Crimea, giving to the to Ukraine. But right now we see that Russia Federation use different narratives about the future. Yeah, that it’s really risky for Crimeans, to being under Ukrainian control on the Ukrainian controlled territories, and also that Crimeans actually fully support the idea of occupation. And Russia created this myth for international communities and also for Russian citizens on the mainland, in Russia Federation that, you know, the Crimeans totally agreed with the occupation. And as I witness of the events, 10 years before in 2014, I can say that Crimeans definitely didn’t support the occupation. But this is the question what, what can you do if the Russian troops just occupied your home? So this is the question of just impossible way to thinking, what can you do? And right now Ukraine just shows that we can do that, we can deoccupy territories. And this is really high, and raising the beliefs and raising the waiting and expectations of the occupation of the territory. So we have some questions of our future. But Ukraine is a democratic state. And we can create our future according to international standards. And of course, we can protect Ukrainians who are living in the territory of Crimea. And, but we can’t do this if we do not, deoccupy this territory, and we can’t do this without support of international community. And this is a trade situation in which human rights defenders of Ukraine are real advocates for weapons for Ukraine, but we really have to have this support, because without the occupation, Russians will have this control on the territory of Crimea under people who are living there and are their lives. And we talk about hundreds of political prisoners, we talk about militarization of Crimea, militarization of the educational process, we, we can see the deportation of Ukrainians from the south territory, wide return of Crimeans to the territory of Crimea. And without the support, we can’t get better, and can’t stop Russia to violate human rights and violate human rights of those who have so many years lived under the occupation of Russian Federation.
Elina Beketova
Thank you so much Alena. I would like to follow up on this question, Mr. Sienik, over to you in terms of how to bolster and how to get more support to the topic of Crimea, and more support from the west.
Denys Sienik
Thank you Elina. You know if we’re talking about the support of the West, I think we should talk about both political and security. Political it is there we can see it on the example of the Crimea platform I spoke about. But we are in the state of war. Russians simply want to kill us. And that is why the security strategy is so important, military strategy is so important, not to allow that happen. And, you know, the President of Ukraine has made it very clear, we will return Crimea by any means. The issue now is that our security strategy is based on, on the military support for Ukraine. And and, as David has said, we have achieved so many success already, by liberating Crimea and and restarting the grain sea route. Unfortunately, we have paid a huge price for that. Too many Ukrainians have died and keep dying. And unlike Russia, we do value the life of every single Ukrainian. All we want is to save more lives. And I’m talking about our soldiers and our civilians. That is why we need more military support and hopefully, I do agree with David thank you for mentioning it, so that the Congress, Congress will vote on, on the assistance for Ukraine. Because we see it as an assistance not for Ukraine only. It is the assistance for Ukraine to fight for our common future, for our common values, simply because Russia will not stop in Ukraine. Putin has made it very clear, he sees the whole West as an enemy. And what is really important to to know it is that we are not asking foreign military boots on the ground in Ukraine. Ukrainian heroes can fulfill this task by themselves. All they need is the necessary resources, the tools to do that. And I just want to say that Russia’s aggression against Ukraine and the threat to the whole world started 10 years ago, exactly in Crimea. That’s where it started. That’s where it must end. As long as Crimea, as the rest of Ukraine are occupied by Russians the war is not over yet. Which means that Russians will have further opportunities to attack us, to attack Ukraine, and to attack the neighboring countries and go beyond. And I am glad that we have announced the such a big number of partners, including in Ramstein Format, about 50 countries that provide Ukraine with the necessary military resources. But the reality is that given the potential and the role of the United States of America, it is critical to get this assistance from the United States of America as soon as possible so that we save more lives and finish the business sooner rather than later. Thank you.
Elina Beketova
Thank you so much Mr. Sienik. Sam, over to you.
Sam Greene
Thank you, Elina and to all of today’s panelists. I’ve learned a tremendous amount from this conversation. But I think the most important lesson is one we probably all should have learned a long time ago, 10 years after Russia’s illegal seizure of Crimea, it’s way past time to silence our internal monologue with its fears and reticences, which has led us not to challenge Russia in 2014. And if we can’t learn to replace that internal monologue with a Ukrainian dialogue, the price paid by Crimeans, by Ukrainians, and by the world as a whole will continue to multiply. I think we’ve taken a step in that direction today. And I’m grateful to all of you for that.
Elina Beketova
Thank you so much, Sam. And just as a closing remark in my analysis for CEPA’s Behind the Lines, I closely examine the situation in occupied Crimea and other temporarily occupied territories of Ukraine. I’m witnessing how the nonviolent resistance movement operates even seemingly small acts like painting pro-Ukraine graffiti or displaying yellow ribbons in public spaces serve as powerful signals to both Ukrainian and the international community. They demonstrate the bravery of Crimean’s and said that they still wait for the moment that they can live in a free and democratic peninsula. A big thank you to all our brilliant experts for their insightful contributions today. We are grateful for everyone who joined this discussion hosted by the Center for European Policy Analysis. For further research and analysis, please visit cepa.org or follow our social media accounts. Stay tuned.
