Elena Davlikanova
Hello, I’m Elena Davlikanova, a Democracy Fellow with the Center for European Policy Analysis and welcome to Understanding Ukraine, a series of conversations with Ukrainian politicians, decision makers and experts on a variety of topics to better understand Ukraine, the future of the Ukrainian people, the current war against Russian Federation, and Ukraine’s cooperation with partners and allies. And today, it is my honor to have this conversation with Artur Gerasymov, Ukrainian MP from the European Solidarity Party, Deputy Head of the Ukrainian Delegation to OSCE and the member of the Bureau of the Assembly. Thank you very much for joining us today. Hello. My first question would be about OSCE, which remains the world’s largest regional security organization by the number of states, and also a very good platform for the dialogue. However, there have been discussions about Russia’s membership in this organization after its full scale invasion in Ukraine. So in your opinion, should Russia be suspended or sanctioned otherwise?

Artur Gerasymov
Very good question about OSCE and OSCE Parliamentary Assembly because I am not dividing all these bodies, because for me, it’s like one big organization. Let’s be open and let’s say the truth – OSCE now in crisis, in big crisis in the previous year, OSCE, did great job in Ukraine through special Monitoring Mssion. Yes, it’s really helped us. But now, the crisis created by one country, and by one member of OSCE – Russia. And truly speaking, this is not about OSCE or OSCE PA. It’s about almost all international organization right now. But we need to remember one very important thing, crisis is not only the problem, it’s also the possibility and that’s the way I want to see the situation. For example, for OSCE, in particular, because I don’t want to see OSCE with the destiny as a League of Nations. You remember what happened with League of Nations before the Second World War. And because of that, I strongly believe that creation of so-called ‘penalty box’ for delegation from countries who started invasions who started aggression who started war against the total integrity and sovereignty of other members, this penalty box must be created. And you’re totally right, this process now actually actively done in the Parliamentary Assembly. I believe that Assembly in this case will be the leader in this process and in case we finalize it in the Assembly, it later on will be created also in the main ministerial, Ministerial OSCE. And briefly, I can tell you about it as follows. There is no totally they plan to suspend Russia, I believe it must be suspended, and not only Russia, but it’s under discussion right now. But we have a big plan of Ukrainian delegation, which was distributed among all other members, more than 50 countries are participating in the organization. And this plan includes, first of all, the change to the rules of the Assembly with a purpose to create suspension. And what may be interesting for our viewers. In the beginning, it was very strict, from the every beginning full suspension of all rights of the delegation. But you are totally right, this organization about dialogue, even with let’s say, not good states. That’s why at the moment this amendment became modified, and now it proposed the two stages suspension. On the first stage, it will be the suspension of the right to vote, the right to be elected, the right to speak during the Assembly, but the delegation of the country will have possibility to visit and to speak, let’s say behind-the-scenes. But if nothing changes, next stage is full suspension of all rights. And also it can be interesting to you – but why it was modified? Because in the beginning, some big European countries like for example, Finland, Austria, Cyprus as well were against, were against. And what Ukrainian delegation did we met carefully with all these delegations, we carefully listened to them and improve all that stuff. And our plan also includes to create their supplementary item, let’s say, the Resolution of the Assembly with immediate effect. Why? Because that change to the rules, the change to the rules will be active, in case it will be supported only in one year, the fastest. But we need immediate effect. We don’t want to see this country in the room, even this year. That’s why the number two in the plan is to create special resolution with immediate effect that Russians can’t be present, can’t participate in the OSCE evet. And also its creation of a Special Committee within the OSCE for support in Ukraine against Russian invasion, against Russian aggression. So we strongly believe in Vancouver, because the annual session of assembly will be in Vancouver and our plan will be supported. We are working hard on that. And to finalize it, to sum it up. Yes, almost all international organization are in big troubles, see what, what, what is happening with UN see, when invaders, when invaders, the aggressor country is chairing the organization. For me, it’s unacceptable. And because I’m in the delegation to OSCE I will do whatever I can, with purpose to save this organization. But to save it on the right way, but not like many propose to forget about Russia and allow them to be present, you know, without any restrictions.

Elena Davlikanova
I hope very much that you will succeed with this goal. And my next question would be about Europe, because it is believed that Russia’s aggression plans were not limited to Ukraine alone, and several other European countries could have become its victims as well. So is Europe currently doing enough to protect itself? By helping Ukraine?

Artur Gerasymov
You’re totally right, that Ukraine is not the first part of the chain, but not the last part of the chain. Because you see, chain started in much earlier. Chechnya – no prompt reply from the democratic world. Transnistria – no prompt reply from the democratic world. Georgia – no prompt reply from the democratic world. After Russia decided: “Ok, we can. And Europe is closing their eyes and don’t see for our actions.” And they invaded Ukraine in 2014. Even after that was no prompt reply, from the let’s say, democratic world. That’s why we received, one of the reasons why we received the full scale invasion in 2022. But when we are speaking about the Europe, Europe is united. That’s the great. But it’s different because for example, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, they understand very clear, who will be the next. They understand that they are also in very big danger. I am really thankful for NATO. And I’m really proud that now Finland is a member of NATO and Sweden, I strongly believe soon will become a member of NATO, because it’s also helped them to save situation for Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania as well, because we need to strategically to evaluate every step but not only from the purpose of interest of one country. But which kind of problem, because you asked if Europe is doing enough or not, Europe is doing good, but not enough. And to know the key point now, the key point is the speed of decision making. Because now the question not about what Europe is doing; the question is how fast Europe is doing. Because we need to understand the help, which we are receiving now is much more important, much more effective than help we will receive let’s say in one year, one and a half or two years. And the second point, from my point of view, why not enough? Half-steps, half-steps because you see, not only because of the behavior of Europe but also because of influence of Russia inside Europe, in many areas we see half-steps. But half steps are also extremely dangerous because, let’s say, we see the situation with oil and gas right now, but no oil, still we see how Russia through third countries is delivering oil to Europe. It’s unacceptable. And I don’t believe that Europe with all their analytical services analytical, let’s say departments can’t see it. Next point – a lot of people just, you know, keep in silence on that, but this extremely dangerous. It’s situation in the nuclear industry, because please see what percentage of delivery of enriched uranium from Russia is in the European markets, if I’m not mistaken, in some cases, it’s up to 70%. But we need to remember that any energy area, any economical area, let’s say delivery area, Russia, always will use as their political, economical and military push or military, you know, pressure on the country. We recently saw it in situation in Ukraine, where they use gas and oil, as you know, as a pressure issue. We saw it in Europe. Why now are we keeping silence about nuclear energy situation? You must be very careful with that. And also, why not enough… because still, I believe that a number of Russian agents of influence in Europe is very, very high. And in case, Europe will not do something with that, it will be big problems for countries in Europe. And also, you know, one more point about that stuff. We, because of the situation in Ukraine, of course, we are doing a lot of meetings with our European partners. And some of them are telling” “Guys, we want to deliver weapons to you, a lot of things to you, ammunition to you, but we don’t have enough. I mean, in their stocks. But the formula, formula to these people is very, very simple – more help with ammunition and defense, you know, with weapons, to Ukraine, right now = less Russian weapons against European countries, because what Ukraine is doing now with these weapons from our partners and with ammunition from our partners? We are destroying offensive capacities of Russia. And also when we are speaking about that, you know, the downing of Kinzhal [Kh-47M2] missile was very, very important for understanding, please, don’t be afraid of Russia at all. And the last but not the least, I strongly believe that Europe also must do concrete steps against Russian state ideology, Raschism. And because what I see in Europe – many people are telling: “There is Krlemin, there is Putin, but there is Russian people.” I am now holding the results of the Russian sociological surveys. And I see that 70-75% of population is totally supportive of this war, supportive ofPutin and his actions against Ukraine. Also, we listen to many interception or conversations between the Russian soldiers and their families, when families inspire their sons, and brothers, and husbands to kill Ukrainians. That’s, you know, this is not normal. And the last but not the least, thw whole world saw the crimes of Russian army in Bucha, Irpin, Borodianka, Izum and other cities, you know, in every liberated city, we are finding mass graves. But it was done by Kremlin, it was done by soldiers. It was done by Russian citizens. And it was done not in one place. It was done in all places, which were occupied by Russia.

Elena Davlikanova
That’s why I would like to ask you how to ensure sustainable, long lasting peace on the European continent. What is the role of Ukraine in this new security order? And how do you see the future of Ukraine in general?

Artur Gerasymov
You know, to ensure the peace in the region in the long term perspective, it’s extremely important. But to do that our European partners, our let’s say, democratic world partners must understand very important principle, which is truly speaking, they don’t understand right now. And Russia is also doing what is proposed to put opposite tools to their minds. What is the principle? To stop war half-way right now will be just a stage, not its finish. Because if the war will be stopped, with some, let’s say, cocnessions to Russia, if Russia and Putin will feel themselves so much successful, it means that it’s only a question of time, when they will start it again. That’s why if we want to ensure it, I want to say to our European partners – don’t be afraid now, don’t be afraid now, do as much as possible, because if you will, afraid to fight today, tomorrow will be too late. And just let’s, you know, study, and remember lessons of the Second World War, it’s a lot of similarities. And also, we need to understand why it’s very dangerous. The world now is very, very small. It’s much smaller than it was even during the Second World War, because of the new weapons, because of the new connections, because of the internet, because of our technologies. That’s why because of the space, military technology, etc., etc., and it means that war in Ukraine, in case it is not finished, and I want to tell you how, may be a big trigger for the, let’s say much bigger opperations, offense and conflict. But how to stop it? Well, do not be afraid of Putin, and defeat Russia following principles: borders of Ukraine as of 1991, don’t afraid because Russia is trying to tell, “We will use this, this, this -nuclear weapons, etc, etc. but again, remember Kinzhal was downed. Next point, install the tribunal, and to show all authoritarian regimes around the world what will be with their leadership. Next point, of course, new government in Russia. But not only new government, new government in Russia will not change the situation drastically. The world will be obliged to do de-nazification, de-russianization of Russia, because Raschism is their state ideology, and the de-militarization of Russia. And the last but not least, and I think, the most important, Ukraine must be the member of NATO. Don’t be afraid of Putin, Ukraine must be the member of NATO. Only in this case safety and long term peace in Europe will be installed. And what will be our contribution? I strongly believe and not only me, all people who communicate with Ukrainian soldiers, they’re telling that Ukrainian army is now the strongest on the continent, the strongest because of experience, because of tactics, because of bravery. Because see, we are using weapons from our partners but when they tell us that our soldiers need 6, 8, 12 months to study these weapons, we are studying them in one month, in two months. So it shows how educated how ready, how bravery and how motivated for this our soldiers are. And also, why only the full victory will restore the world security architecture for the next 70 years? I think not only we, all European countries, all, let’s say, countries in the world want to see that. That for the next 70 years there will be again, you know full peace and no big conflicts. Why? Because what is now at stake in Ukraine? Ukraine will be bright example. Bright successful example, of what will be with aggressor, or Ukraine will be unsuccessful example, that any aggressor can get any territory. And about the future, of course bright. I see it as very bright. I strongly believe that Ukraine has a bright future, because our people, our soldiers deserve it. But there are also two scenarios. In case Ukraine will be democratic country, it will be much faster. In case Ukraine will not be democratic, and we see some signs, some examples of that. We, again will be very successful, the future will be bright, but unfortunately much more slow and the through the obstacles.

Elena Davlikanova
I’m very grateful for this very informative discussion. I truly hope that your messages that are very obvious that every Ukrainian will be heard and right decisions will be made and the future of Ukraine will be bright. Thank you very much for your time. And thank you very much for watchin