Kari Odermann
Hi there. It’s CEPA fellow Kari Odermann. Welcome to the CEPA podcast, where we bring together leaders and experts from both sides of the Atlantic to explore the biggest challenges shaping our world today. We hope you enjoy the episode.

Alina Polyakova
Hello everyone. I’m Alina Polyakova, President and CEO of the Center for European Policy Analysis, and welcome to the CEPA podcast. This is a special series with members of the US Congress, and I’m absolutely thrilled to have the opportunity to speak today with Congressman Mike Lawler, representing the great state of New York, district 17. Welcome to the CEPA podcast, Congressman, it’s great to have you.

Mike Lawler
Thanks for having me Alina, appreciate it.

Alina Polyakova
It’s absolutely my pleasure. So we want to just have a conversation with you, get to know you a little bit here on the podcast. I was reading a little bit about your biography. You were born and raised in New York, a true New Yorker. You’ve had a long career, both in state politics and local politics, and, of course, now you’re serving in the US Congress on two really important committees, the Foreign Affairs Committee in the House, and the Financial Services Committee. But, I actually want to start with a question I wanted to ask you for a while, because we got to know each other because of your engagement and passion about the future of one country that I think many Americans are probably not that familiar with and that’s Moldova, a country of about 2.5 million people, very close to the Black Sea, though not on the Black Sea directly, sandwiched between Romania and Ukraine. You are even the co-chair of the Moldova caucus, together with your democratic colleague, Deborah Ross. So let me just ask you, why are you so interested in this small country in Central Eastern Europe, and why is this a place that should matter to Americans who may not know that it even exists honestly?

Mike Lawler
Well, Moldova was a country that did have Black Sea access and ultimately taken by the Soviets. You know, this was a country that was part of Romania at one point, and then the Russians took it, then it went back, then the Soviets took it, and then it became an independent country nestled between Ukraine and Romania. But my interest, you know, stems from the fact that my wife was born and raised in Moldova. Her family still lives in Moldova, on the Ukraine border near Transnistria, a breakaway region of Moldova. And so, you know, over the course of our marriage, certainly I have visited Moldova multiple times, been, you know, acutely aware of their domestic politics as a result of, you know, my wife previously voting in elections. And you know, obviously I’ve seen the rise of the Sandhu government and the efforts to join the EU and, you know, really, you know, end any dependence on or engagement by Russia. And I think, obviously, as with most of these former Soviet satellite states there, there are challenges along the way. But, you know, during my time in Congress, I’ve wanted to help promote the US Moldovan relationship and support their efforts to join the EU and become more of a Western democracy, you know, then a continued, you know, sovietic, you know, state, if you will. I think the objective is to make sure that they have the support, both financially and governmentally, to end the corruption of the Russian oligarchs, you know, and many of whom have stolen billions of dollars of wealth from the Moldovan people. You know, obviously, the Sandhu government has been able to make some progress with respect to corruption, you know, and going after the corruption within the government, which is important, especially as they seek to ascend to EU status. So that’s been kind of the drive behind my interest, and obviously combating malign Russian influence in the region.

Alina Polyakova
So thank you for that, and it often takes a love interest to get you interested in other parts of the world, and I very much respect that. Kudos to you. You mentioned two things I want to follow up on. You mentioned Maya Sandhu, who, of course, is the President of Moldova, and it’s, she’s someone that we at CEPA have also recognized as a real democracy fighter, someone who is so focused on ensuring the success of her country, the integration of her country into democratic institutions like those of the EU. We honored her for her work at CEPA a few years ago with our Freedom Fighter award, just an incredible, incredible leader. But the other thing you mentioned is the Russian interest in Moldova. So it’s a small country, but it’s a strategically important country, and Moldova has elections coming up at the end of September. What should be the message that you, as a member and a leading voice in the US Congress, but what should be the message not just to Maya Sander her government, but to the Moldovan people as they go to the ballot box in a election that’s likely going to have a lot of Russian influence. It’s already happening. You can read about in the news, an election that’s, I think, going to be very critical for the future of the small but incredibly strategically important nation.

Mike Lawler
Well, look, obviously, this is part of the reason why Ukraine is so important. You know, if Ukraine were to fall, a country like Moldova would be in grave danger. And obviously, with Romania, not only being part of the EU, but being a NATO member, you would have a significant challenge right on Romania’s border, which would create real problems in the region. From the standpoint of the Moldovan people, I think they need to focus on the future and to continue to move forward with the effort to join the EU to have greater economic investment and growth in their country. I’ve traveled through different parts of Moldova and seen obviously the changes over the past decade for the better, a lot of investment, both from the US and Europe. Obviously, they have a great wine industry that has grown, and you’ve seen imports into the US, within their wine industry, which is positive. In fact, one of my former colleagues, David Trone, is the greatest importer of Moldovan wine in the US. And so, you know, I think there’s, there’s real opportunity, but only if they continue in that ascension towards EU status. I think if there’s democratic backsliding, if they start to recede back towards Russian influence, that’s going to create real challenges moving forward. So, you know, I think that the they need to continue down the path. We saw, obviously, last year Russian interference, and earlier this year in Romania and, you know, the impact that had on their elections. You know, we want to avoid that obviously in Moldova, and I think the Moldovan people should continue down the path that they’re on.

Alina Polyakova
Absolutely. And in addition to Ukraine, Moldova has been the first line of attack by Russia, both in the cyber domain, attacks on critical infrastructure. It’s really a country that’s, as you said, I think holding the line between NATO and non-NATO countries, and doing it in a way that’s frankly unbelievable for a country that size and a country that is still struggling with its own democracy, as you said. You know, sticking with Moldova just another second and for those of you who may be listening have not tried Moldovan wine, it’s excellent and you should. It’s very much on the radar these days of wine connoisseurs. And you’re very, very right.

Mike Lawler
Some great, great brands. Purcari, Cricova, Castel Mimi. Try them all.

Alina Polyakova
It’s excellent wine. It’s a big reason to go to Moldova just to do some wine tastings. In the future, I’ll get to do that, haven’t done it yet, but you know, one of the things you have talked about for several years is the need for the US to really empower Moldova to resist Russian malign influence that you brought up and that it should be our responsibility, as well as a country, to support Moldova’s ability to defend itself. You, in the last Congress, introduced the US Moldova Defense Partnership Act together with Congresswoman Ross. Let me just ask you a question. We’re in a moment where, in our country, we’re all thinking about, how do we do more with less? You know, when it comes to our defense budget, all budgets, right? And why should this be a priority? You know, if we’re thinking about, how do we have the most advanced, cutting-edge military defend our homeland, what’s the argument for the United States committing resources to help Moldova defend itself?

Mike Lawler
Well, look, you need allies around the globe. And obviously we’ve seen the malign influence of Russia, China, and Iran. You know, we see, you know, just a few weeks ago they get together between President Xi, President Putin, and Kim Jong Un and obviously, you know, they are working together to undermine and to destabilize the US, Europe, Israel and the free world. And I think we obviously have to be cognizant of that in the decisions we’re making, both when it comes to foreign aid and soft power, as well as military aid and military cooperation. I just came back from a trip to Italy and North Africa, and we talked extensively about the Mediterranean and the importance of the Mediterranean strategically and militarily. And you know, earlier this year, I was in Greece, and we went to Crete Souda Bay and saw our naval forces there. I visited the Sixth Fleet in Naples on this most recent trip. So, there are a lot of strategic interests that the US has in ensuring the stability, not just of Europe, but of the Middle East, having greater influence in North Africa, you know, with Morocco and Tunisia, building greater military cooperation. And so Moldova is one of those countries. While it is small, it’s an important country and given the long-standing ties with Romania, a NATO ally, you know, ensuring Moldova’s sovereignty and stability is critical. And like I said, if Ukraine were to fall, a country like Moldova would would be in serious peril,

Alina Polyakova
And not just that, you know, you have also spoken in the past on other podcasts that shall remain unnamed, on this podcast, on other podcasts you’ve talked, I think, very eloquently, about the threat that we would face, not just our allies, but we as Americans would face from this domino effect you’re describing, if Ukraine falls to the Russians, Moldova’s next, and then you do have Russia on NATO’s borders, and the risk of confrontation between Russia and NATO just skyrockets. You know, I just wanted to draw you out on that a little bit in two ways, because I may be paraphrasing here a little bit, but I’ve heard you say things like, you know, if Putin is successful in Ukraine, that this would be a catastrophe for Western democracy. Why? How do you draw that link? You know, a lot of people probably don’t see that. You know, well, Ukraine’s over there. Moldova is over there. How’s this really going to affect democracy writ large? If Putin wins in Ukraine, we may not want that to happen, but ultimately that may be, may be what happens.

Mike Lawler
It’s the domino effect. I mean, if we take the position of it’s not our conflict, not our problem, you could see how quickly these conflicts can spread. You could see, you know, if we weren’t defending Israel against Iran and its terror proxies, you know, and Israel wasn’t capable of fighting back with US military weapons and support, obviously, you would have a catastrophe there. If we allowed China to continue unimpeded with their economic coercion that they engage in, trying to seize control of ports and waterways in the South China Sea and in South America and off the coast of Africa, if we just allow that to happen and say, not our responsibility, we’re all the way over here, very quickly, the world order changes, and that has a tremendous impact economically on the US. If countries start using, you know, Chinese-backed currency, you know, as opposed to the dollar that would be catastrophic for our economy. If China controlled the trade routes, that would be catastrophic for our economy. So, these issues are completely intertwined, and while we don’t want to expend US blood and treasure on endless wars, we have to be cognizant of America’s role in the world, and that requires peace through strength. It requires a strong military. It requires strong foreign policy utilizing soft power. What the President has already been able to do in terms of bringing some of these conflicts to an end, whether you talk about, you know, Azerbaijan and Armenia, or you talk about the Congo, you talk about India and Pakistan, you know these, these are critically important. It requires American leadership. China is not interested in resolving conflict, they foment it. Russia is certainly not interested in resolving conflict, they create it. So this is obviously a responsibility as leader of the free world, and I think what the President is able, been able to do, especially with our European allies, by forcing our NATO allies to pay more towards shared defense is a step in the right direction.

Alina Polyakova
So you took my next question directly out of my mouth, which is really about, you know, this connecting our kind of domestic economic policy in the US with these big questions about foreign policy and the world order. And I want to draw you out on something you alluded to, because you sit in the Financial Services Committee, you’re so good at connecting how the global financial industry is so linked into our foreign policy. And you alluded to this desire by our adversaries, most notably Russia and China, to try to unseat the US Dollar as the global reserve currency, and why this is so dangerous to the future of our prosperity and our global leadership. Can you dig into that a little bit more, what will be the real consequences, if the US dollar is no longer the default reserve currency for countries around the world? What if it’s replaced by the Chinese yuan? What would that mean? In real terms.

Mike Lawler
It’d be catastrophic for Americans. The value of the dollar would plummet, and so our buying power would plummet with it, and costs would rise, and obviously it would have a tremendous impact on our debt. And so there would be a ripple effect across the market. But the fact is, you know, you have Brazil, Russia, India, China, the BRIC countries you know, have been seeking to do this for years. And this is something you know, that they understand. American dominance economically has been centered in large measure, because the US is the reserve currency, the US dollar. So this is, you know, and because our financial markets are the envy of the world. Our ability to create capital, and for businesses to have access to capital, all of that will change if the US is not the reserve currency. So there are real challenges and threats to that, but that is why foreign policy is so important. It has a tremendous impact, even when people don’t think, oh, this impacts me. It does. Are there changes that need to be made? Absolutely. As some of you know what was happening at USAID, some of the decisions that were being made were counter to American foreign policy and American interest, but you don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. And we need to have a balance on this. And so that’s why it’s so important to continue to promote US foreign policy.

Alina Polyakova
And soft power. You need hard power behind it, but you need that. So the tip of the spear, I think any US military officer and Commander will tell you that, you know, we don’t want to send our men and women into battle unless we absolutely have to.

Mike Lawler
Military force should be the last resort.

Alina Polyakova
Exactly.

Mike Lawler
And obviously you want to use every diplomatic means necessary. It’s why the President, by the way, has tried to engage with Putin. Ignoring him is not an answer, you have to engage. But in the absence of good faith negotiation, in the absence of a real willingness to end this war in Ukraine, then the American government must take steps to implement sanctions and to and Europe must get off Russian gas. And in the absence of that, this will continue in perpetuity. So, you have to be able to balance both, you know, soft power with with hard power. Some of it economic, some of it military.

Alina Polyakova
Absolutely. So, I have a lightning round of questions for you that I’m going to just warn you, these are the most controversial questions I’ve asked so far. Okay?

Mike Lawler
Sounds good.

Alina Polyakova
So, here we go. I asked this of everyone, it’s not just you, dogs or cats?

Mike Lawler
Dogs.

Alina Polyakova
Whoa. That was a straight answer. Very, very clear. Okay, beer or wine?

Mike Lawler
Wine. Red.

Alina Polyakova
Okay, could have guessed that. Hot dog or burger?

Mike Lawler
Burger.

Alina Polyakova
Okay. Now, it gets more controversial because you’re from New York, okay, but you’re gonna have to take a side here: Mets or Yankees?

Mike Lawler
Yankees.

Alina Polyakova
Knicks or Nets?

Mike Lawler
Knicks.

Alina Polyakova
Jets or Giants? [unintelligible]

Mike Lawler
Giants.

Alina Polyakova
Giants? Wow, that was easy.

Mike Lawler
Don’t forget. Don’t forget my New York Rangers. I’m a hockey fan too.

Alina Polyakova
That was next on my list, but I don’t want to keep going, you know, because you’re gonna get a bunch of angry notes.

Mike Lawler
Those are easy. Yeah, those are easy.

Alina Polyakova
You know, that was easy for you. Okay, my last one is not. It’s not a multiple choice. What goes on your bagel?

Mike Lawler
Oh, that I split sometimes. I love butter and I love cream cheese with scallions.

Alina Polyakova
Cream cheese and scallions, nothing else?

Mike Lawler
No, no.

Alina Polyakova
Just the basics.

Mike Lawler
Yeah.

Alina Polyakova
All right, I’m a salmon person. I like my lox bagel, you know.

Mike Lawler
But I’m all for, I’m all for salmon, but like, not on, not on bagel.

Alina Polyakova
Fair enough. You’re very decisive. Not everybody we talked to is so decisive about these questions. Because, you know that dog [question] —

Mike Lawler
I like what I like.

Alina Polyakova
— it stumps people. It’s very controversial. You don’t want to have, you know the the the pro cat lobby on you, which you know it exists.

Mike Lawler
Yeah, I’m a dog person.

Alina Polyakova
Fair enough. Do you have a dog?

Mike Lawler
I do, yeah, a Cavachon, a mix between a King Charles and a and a Bichon.

Alina Polyakova
Very cute. Dog’s name?

Mike Lawler
Charlie.

Alina Polyakova
Good dog name, solid dog name.

Mike Lawler
He is eight years old.

Alina Polyakova
That’s very sweet. We’ll have to include a picture of the dog some at some point on this podcast, just flash it up there. Congressman Lawler, thank you so much for your time.

Mike Lawler
Thank you. Appreciate it, Alina.

Alina Polyakova
Was great to have you, and hope to see you again soon.

Mike Lawler
Thank you so much.

Kari Odermann
If you enjoyed listening, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. You can find us on Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever else you get your podcasts. And to dive deeper into the issues shaping transatlantic policy, visit cepa.org, where you’ll find more expert analysis and research. And don’t forget, you can find us all across social media for the latest updates, thought leadership, and exclusive content. Thanks for listening.

Alina Polyakova
You know, I appreciate you making the case for Moldova, always such an important strategic partner and ally for the United States. Wish all the best to the Moldovan people ahead of their elections at the end of the month, and thank you for your leadership in the US Congress, and thank you for liking dogs.