Kari Odermann
Hi there. It’s CEPA fellow Kari Odermann. Welcome to the CEPA Podcast, where we bring together leaders and experts from both sides of the Atlantic to explore the biggest challenges shaping our world today. We hope you enjoy the episode.
Alina Polyakova
Hello, I’m Alina Polyakova, President and CEO of the Center for European Policy Analysis, and this is the CEPA Podcast. Welcome back, everyone, to our special conversation with Members of Congress, and today I am absolutely thrilled to have with us Congressman Nathaniel Moran from the great state of Texas. It is so wonderful to have you here today. Congressman, thank you so much for being on the CEPA Podcast.
Nathaniel Moran
Thanks. Dr Polyakova, it’s great to be with you. Sure appreciate what CEPA does, day in and day out, to help educate, train, frankly, and to inform the public about what’s going on in Europe and the correct policy analysis we need to have, and I appreciate your leadership.
Alina Polyakova
Thank you for saying all that. It’s such an honor to be here with you as such a dedicated public servant in your career, which we’ll get into a little bit here. We’ll start from your origins in Texas to your current role in Congress. And I should have noted, it’s not just the great state of Texas, it’s the first Congressional District of Texas that you represent, which is pretty cool.
Nathaniel Moran
Oh, no doubt there’s a reason why we’re the First District of Texas. I happen to believe we’re the best district in Texas.
Alina Polyakova
I’m sure it is. I hope I’ll get to visit you out there sometimes, sir. I hear you have great rodeos.
Nathaniel Moran
Great rodeos, great barbecue, great azaleas, roses, pine trees. We’ve got the beautiful part of the state.
Alina Polyakova
Okay, since you mentioned already rodeos, I have a lightning round to get us started here. We’re going to start with some easy ones. We’re going to warn you, these are the most controversial questions in this entire podcast. So get ready.
Nathaniel Moran
Okay, I’m starting to sweat already, so let’s, we’d better move on. Yeah.
Alina Polyakova
Alright. Question one: Dogs or cats?
Nathaniel Moran
Dogs.
Alina Polyakova
Okay, beer or wine.
Nathaniel Moran
Neither! You’re talking to one of the only members of Congress who does not drink. And so if I were choosing between beer or wine, I would choose the or. It’s kind of like the Do you like me? Yes or no, and the girl always circles the or, right? I mean, that’s the way it works. So at least you did in the fifth grade.
Alina Polyakova
Whenever people are downing their wine in the halls of Congress. What’s your drink of choice?
Nathaniel Moran
My drink of choice is an iced tea generally.
Alina Polyakova
Very Nice
Nathaniel Moran
Generally, lots of coffee. That keeps me awake.
Alina Polyakova
I’m a big, big iced tea fan. Okay, let’s move on. Hot dog or burger
Nathaniel Moran
Hamburger.
Alina Polyakova
Okay, now here we go. This is gonna get controversial in Texas, I have no doubt. So be careful what you say. This is all about barbecue, Tex-Mex, or barbecue?
Nathaniel Moran
Oh, you’re killing me. These are tough questions, because if I say barbecue, I’m gonna alienate about half of my constituents. If I say Tex-Mex, I alienate about half. I have to go with Tex-Mex if I’m choosing between those two. I worked at a Mexican restaurant while I was going to college, and so I developed a real affinity for great salsa, and I love Tex-Mex food, so it’s the staple on our road, generally, now it’s fajitas that we eat.
Alina Polyakova
Oh, very nice, okay, staying with a very controversial theme, even though you chose Tex-Mex on barbecue, brisket, or ribs?
Nathaniel Moran
Definitely ribs.
Alina Polyakova
Okay, that was an easier one. Now we’re gonna get even deeper here. Sports, okay, Rangers or Astros?
Nathaniel Moran
You are killing me. I think I would have to go with the Rangers on this one, just because they’re closer. I love both of them, but I’d go with the Rangers.
Alina Polyakova
Okay. Rockets or Mavericks?
Nathaniel Moran
Rockets.
Alina Polyakova
Okay. Cowboys or Texans?
Nathaniel Moran
No question, the Cowboys are the only team I can truly say I’ve been a fan of since just childhood. I remember watching Cowboys games from early on, so definitely a Cowboys fan.
Alina Polyakova
Okay, just two more. Okay, and then we’ll start torturing you. George Strait or Miranda Lambert?
Nathaniel Moran
George Strait, but Miranda is from my district. She grew up about 30 minutes from where my hometown is, or about 25 minutes from my hometown. So I hate to choose against a district constituent, but George Strait.
Alina Polyakova
You see? I mean, you know, you might be losing some votes there, right?
Nathaniel Moran
I’m more classic country than I am kind of modern, kind of modern country. So I think I’d have to go with that.
Alina Polyakova
Okay, and this is the last question. This was suggested by my amazing team, who explained to me what exactly this means, because I’m not from Texas, but the best way to end the week, the rodeo or Friday Night Lights?
Nathaniel Moran
Oh, Friday Night Lights, without question, the rodeo is great, but Friday Night Lights, I can tell you, and your team, your team probably did some good intel on me that I played high school football, and Friday Night Lights is all about high school football. I still maintain my tickets and White House Wildcat Stadium. And every, just about every Friday night, you’re going to find me in the fall at White House Wildcat Stadium, watching the team play and watching the band March at halftime. It’s by without question, my favorite thing in the whole world to do, and my favorite place, is to be in that stadium on Friday night to watch the team play.
Alina Polyakova
So those are all the hard questions. You’re free to go. No, I’m just kidding. We’re gonna ask you some interesting questions now to get you to talk a little bit about, you know, how you went for Friday Night Lights, probably when you’re growing up out in Texas, to now being in the nation’s capital and serving as our Member of Congress here in Washington. So you’ve had quite a journey. I would say I was obviously reading about your profile ahead of this. You are a Texan. You have spent most of your life there, and for the better part of two decades, you served the city of Tyler and Smith County as a city council member, Mayor pro tempore, and a county judge. So you have been deep in, I think, the constituency that you now serve, and very involved with what’s going on in your community. And I was really fascinated to learn sticking with your high school years, not forever, but just for a little bit that back in 1992 you and your twin brother, which I didn’t know you had a twin brother, until I found this amazing news clip that had a picture of two scholar athletes on their way to a people to people program in 1992 and I keep saying that year, because it was a fascinating year, and you went to Russia, as well as Latvia. And this was such an incredibly interesting time to go. And I’m just wondering if you could tell us just a little bit about what it was in your early life that drew you to this international affairs, and specifically to go to a place that at that point in 1991, there was the fall of the Soviet Union. You know, that was the evil empire, right? And suddenly, 92 people can go there. And you’re probably one of the first, you know, young people who end up going over to Russia and Latvia as well. What were your impressions from that trip? Why did you decide to go? Just tell us more about that.
Nathaniel Moran
Yeah, for me, it really starts back in elementary school. My dad was not a college-educated man, but he loved international affairs. He loved keeping up with world affairs and the news. And so we as children always knew that from 5:30 to 6:00 every evening, when the evening news was on, we really needed to pay attention. And he talked to us about those things. And so we developed, early on, really a mindset of understanding that what goes on in the world outside of our region, our state, our nation matters, and we loved other cultures. We went on a lot of mission trips. As a kid, my parents were in in bible ministry, and so we went on a lot of mission trips. And that began to turn my view outward. And my parents always challenged me to learn more about the world, and then to figure out how I could serve our country in a way that would be valued, valued across the globe. And so when we had this opportunity in high school, my counselor came to us and said, “Hey, there’s this people-to-people group. Would you guys be interested? Immediately, I’m hearing Ronald Reagan in my head, because I’ve said for years. I’m a Reagan Republican. In 1984, when he ran for his second term in office, that’s when I was in the fourth grade. That’s when I really got the desire and the passion to run for office and to be involved in world affairs. And so when this came up, I said, Absolutely, we went separately. By the way, we went in two different groups. He was kind of science and math-based, and I was more of the political, English, and history guy. He got one side of the brain, I got the other side. And so we didn’t go together, but we went kind of side by side in two different groups. But it was a wonderful opportunity to meet so many people in Latvia and Russia and understand more about the culture and the People themselves. And I like to make the distinction between the government of Russia and the people of Russia, because there is something really wonderful about the culture, and the music, and the literature, and the people in Russia, and understanding that it’s separate from the government itself, and the oppression that comes from the government is really important.
Alina Polyakova
You know, just thinking about reflecting on that moment in the 90s in that part of the world, when you talk about Reagan, I have to say you must have been a really unique fourth grader to be so interested in politics, international affairs at such a young age. But, but, you know, the 90s are often talked about now, as you know, maybe a missed opportunity in Russia, because it was a moment where the Russian people were finally free of the Iron Curtain. You know, my family immigrated to the US and 91, so just a year before, from then Soviet Ukraine. And I remember American culture, American everything that was, that was everything to people. And finally, in the 90s, you know, there was this opening, this opportunity, you know, we could talk to each other in a way we couldn’t talk to before. Talk to each other before we could, you know, experience each other’s cultures. And then, of course, now we look at that country being ruled by an authoritarian Vladimir Putin, who’s now the longest serving Russian leader, even compared to his Soviet predecessors, a country that is very repressed, that is set against the United States, at least in the government rhetoric. You know, from your early kind of impressions, what I’m just reflecting back on what you thought of what you were able to see of the people of the country back then. Did you think this is where we’d end up?
Nathaniel Moran
No, no, I didn’t, and the way you describe it is correct, because when we were over there, we were embraced as Americans, and you’re right, the Russians that we met in the Moscow area, in the Petersburg area, and then in Latvia, going through Riga, one of the most beautiful cities I’ve ever been to. Just amazing how much we were embraced, and how much the Western culture was being embraced at the time, that the music, the clothing, the talk, I mean, it was all really focused around that. And so you felt this momentum towards liberty and freedom, but you knew that there needed to be great structures and institutions put in place to protect that, as it would need to happen in any country. And it’s unfortunate to see that that didn’t stick. In the 90s, we saw a brief moment of a glimpse of the possibility of what could be for a great nation. But unfortunately, the leadership that developed later on, as we saw when Putin came into power, certainly as he came into power, he had other notions, other ideas, and what went the other way. And really for him, it was about about power and about centralizing that power once again, and what was, what he considered to be the great Soviet Union, which we know was just a mess, but, but you felt that freedom and that love of Western culture when you were over there in the early 90s, and I was back over there to study as part of my Russian degree program and and when I was there at Texas Tech, when we went over in 97 to study, and you still felt, you still felt some of that there, though it was, it was just not catching the way you had hoped it would.
Alina Polyakova
So even in that short time period, early 90s to late 90s, you saw a clear difference that’s really interesting, because, of course, now you know, part of the propaganda that the Putin regime has spread is that the 90s were this horrible time, you know, full of violence and crime and that, you know, the West ruined Russia and with its privatization schemes and all these different things. But when I talk to some of the Russian political dissidents, they still survive anyway. You know, that’s not how they see the 90s, right? They see it as the biggest opportunity that they ever had for true liberty and freedom that was then taken away from them by their own regime, at the end of the day, right? And not by the Americans, and not by the West, but by the inability of the country to really develop the kinds of democratic institutions that we need. And so I’m going a little script here, but you know, I’m just curious to hear your thoughts, because there’s so few, I would say, members of Congress, who’ve had that early experience, who had such an interest in this part of the world from such an early age, and saw the importance of it for our own global leadership and national security. But do you think that a different democratic Russia that could be a partner and not an adversary to the United States is still possible?
Nathaniel Moran
It is still possible, at least, I want to believe it’s still possible and here, but here’s the, here’s the key to all that. And this goes the same for any country that’s trying to really emerge into a democratic society, and that is, you have you’re gonna have growing pains, you’re gonna have transitional changes that are tough. They really are tough, but you have to manage through that, and press through that, and you have to build these institutions like we talked about. So you have to have an independent judiciary, you have to have a free press, you have to have free elections. You have to have many of those freedoms that here in America, we just think are ordinary, common. We take, you know, we take for granted. But for people who haven’t seen those, they have to rise up and demand that those institutions occur in such a way. Doesn’t have to doesn’t have to look exactly like America. It doesn’t, doesn’t at all, but it has to occur in such a way that it is perpetually possible to keep those in place, instead of then just allowing for another strong man, a cult of personality, to rise to the top and take over and reduce those institutions to nothing, which is what we’ve seen Putin do so but, but let’s analogize now to even what’s happening in Ukraine, and the hope that when we come out of out of this War, this war that was needless and unfortunately has cost so many lives on on both sides, Russian and Ukrainian, but certainly the Ukrainian lives, innocent lives that were lost when we’re coming out of this, Ukraine is going to have tough decisions to make, long term to make sure that the institutions that they reform across their their country are stable enough to survive any person that they will go beyond that, that they will have, that they will deal with corruption, that they will have independent press, that they will have an independent judiciary, those institutions, as I call, call it, the structural protections are necessary for any society, democratic society, to thrive and survive well.
Alina Polyakova
Thank you for bringing up Ukraine, because I wanted to ask you more about that. Because in your congressional hat, since 2023, you have spoken, I think, quite eloquently, about the importance of US support for Ukraine, not just for Ukraine, but for our own national security. And you talked a little bit about Reagan being your inspiration for public service. So I wanted to see if you connect those two, you know, the early inspiration of Ronald Reagan to you, plus what’s happening in the world now. And why have you said that it’s so important for the US to support Ukraine?
Nathaniel Moran
I have often quoted Reagan’s 40th anniversary speech at the beaches of Normandy, where he talks about the mistakes that we made in World War Two, sitting back on the sidelines, believing that the Atlantic Ocean would protect us and that we could just allow Europe to work itself out and not have to worry about it. And he said that was a mistake. He said it was a mistake to take refuge across the sea and to wait and see what was happening, and it cost too many innocent lives in World War Two because of our delay. And we can’t repeat that. So we can’t repeat the delay. We also can’t repeat the weakness or the tolerance of evil as it rises. He’s called them tyrannical governments with expansionist intent in that speech, and that’s what we’ve seen with Putin. And so you know where that ends? It doesn’t end at the border of any single country. It continues to perpetuate itself until you end it with strength, with power, with overwhelming might and superior force, and that’s got to happen here, where Putin cannot believe he comes out of this thing victorious, and I think that that’s probably where we’re going to end up. Putin has been invited. I mean, everybody knows how to sit at the negotiating table. I don’t think it’s in Putin to negotiate a deal that that looks anything like the West is going to need, and because of that, I think we’re going to end up in a situation where additional economic strength on our part, additional military force by Ukrainians and maybe the Europeans is going to going to put him where he needs to be and his place, and then finally resolve this conflict.
Alina Polyakova
Yeah, you know, just sticking with that a little bit more obviously, the world that we live in today is very different from than it was even say a decade ago, right? We have wars, not just in Ukraine, not just Russia’s war against Ukraine, the Middle East, you know, and potential conflicts that are bound it seem to emerge in the Indo-Pacific and perhaps even elsewhere that we’re not even thinking about right now. And I think to a lot of Americans, and probably even some of your colleagues on the hill, there’s a big question about what we can actually do as the United States? What do we prioritize?
Nathaniel Moran
Yeah, well, I’ll tell you this weakness invites aggression, and for the past. For four years, the United States, through President Biden, was very weak on the foreign policy standpoint, and as a result, we saw aggression by China, North Korea, Iran, and Russia. Now, in about nine months or ten months, what we’ve seen out of President Trump is the restoration of strength on the world stage, and what has happened as a result of that, we’ve seen now, Iran’s nuclear facilities almost wiped out, if not completely wiped out, certainly they’re on their heels. And in that moment, Russia couldn’t come to the defense of Iran, which they typically would have done, because they’re otherwise engaged in the wrongful war against Ukraine. But Xi has gotten the picture. He’s already kind of made clear that as long as Trump’s in office, he’s not going to try to take Taiwan. That’s a result of strength on the world stage. But I think even more so, you can look at what happened here with the meeting in Beijing and in the past month, and that having Putin and Kim Jong Un come to Beijing. The reason why that’s happening is that I think those three leaders are beginning to fear the rise of influence and strength of the United States on the world stage, and they’re trying to make a show of strength together. But truth be told, the United States, in particular with our European allies and partners, we are not beatable by those three forces, if we stick together, and if we stand in a strong measure, and it will stop the aggression by these tyrants.
Alina Polyakova
Well, let me just stick with that, because I think the images from that meeting in China, where you had all these leaders holding hands and shaking hands and really trying to present an image of strength against the United States and our allies, were probably quite a shock to a lot of people. You know, it really feels like there’s a bipolarity that’s re-emerging, right? And it’s very different than what we saw during the Cold War, because it’s not so structured. It’s a bit more of a loose partnership or alliance between these places. And you’ve spoken a lot about, and you’ve alluded to it already in this conversation, the real danger of isolationism, right? And how if we go into that place which, you know, historically, the US has been a country, there’s been relatively isolation so Americans just want to, you know, keep our problems that we have to deal with here at home, and we only really want to look abroad when it really impacts us directly, and that’s been a historical just normal in this country, the benefit of having two oceans, I think, on our sides. But you’ve talked a lot about why this is not the moment to turn towards that kind of mentality, because what happens out there in the world affects us here at home. How do you see the kind of domestic issues linked to these bigger foreign policy questions, and this may re-emerge as an authoritarian access that seems to really want to unseat the United States and take on global leadership?
Nathaniel Moran
Yeah, there’s a lot to impact there. So let’s, let’s start with the fact that the three of them were together, and you’re right. A lot of you’re right. A lot of people probably didn’t realize how closely aligned they were. So in that regard, it’s probably good that the public sees that, so that they know there is a strategic dissonance between what those three entities want, Russia, China, North Korea, and what the United States wants. Isolationism is not going to help our national security interests. What happens abroad will impact us eventually. Let’s take Iran as an example. Iran hated. They have this hatred for the United States and Israel, but they were targeting Israel, and there were many here in the United States that just wanted to sit back and say, You know what, we’re fine over here, but we weren’t, because we knew that that was just the appetizer. Israel was just the appetizer. We were the main course eventually, if they were to get a nuclear weapon, and so for us to go strategically strike those facilities was necessary for our defense, even though maybe it wasn’t imminent, it was not an imminent threat tomorrow on our shores, it was going to be an imminent threat in the next couple of years. The same can be said for China and Russia, and a couple of different aspects. Let’s look at economics. We know that China is trying to dominate and isolate the United States economically around the world. They’ve got investments all over the world that are investments that are going to bind our foreign policy and our military policy if we’re not careful. Why? Because we’re dependent on critical minerals, supply chains, and pharmaceuticals that are all over this world, but come back and are centered upon China and its influence. That’s one of the differences between now and in decades past, is we have this, we have this complication of our economics that is mixed up in this. And then a lot of our friends are steeped in it. India has a foot with Russia and China, and Korea does too, and Japan does too. And so we want to make sure that our friends and allies know that we’re going to be with them economically, diplomatically, so that if and when the time comes, we can depend on them militarily as well, at least, at least to be neutral or on our side, and certainly not on the other side. And that alignment will be a deterrent, and that’s what we want, a deterrent. We don’t want military action. We want a deterrent for military action around the world. We want peace, prosperity, and democracy for all of the regions of the world, all the peoples of the world. We can’t be the world’s policemen, and I’m not. I’m not advocating for that, but I like to call it strategic interposition. You’ve got to know when and where and how to interpose yourself and your influence around the world to stop growing tyrants and growing evil and growing problems that are going to be strategically disaligned from the United States.
Alina Polyakova
So let me ask you just one final question. I want to stick with this notion of how important our allies are to what we’re trying to achieve across the world. And you know, it’s no secret, and you go to Europe a lot. You’ve been really involved in the Transatlantic Legislators Dialog and building partnerships with your colleagues in various parliaments across Europe as well. So I’m sure you get this too, just like I do when you go over there, that people are concerned. They’re really worried about the ongoing war in Ukraine, which they see, of course, as a direct threat to their own national security. And they worry about the future of the Transatlantic Alliance, because we’re going through a shift or an evolution of that alliance, which I think is necessary, right? The world has changed. We need to change as an alliance. What do you say to our allies in Europe to reassure them?
Nathaniel Moran
Well, I do say that we recognize, and I say it loudly that we recognize that the partnership and the alliances that we have with our European partners is critical to our long term objective, both of our long term objectives of peace and prosperity and stability around the world, and in particular for them in Europe, and that we’re not going to walk away from those relationships. I know that there are tensions when we’re talking about trade and economics. We’re talking about military alliances right now, but you’re right. We do have to shift, because most of those are all grounded on and founded upon a World War Two mindset, a post-World War Two mindset, and rebuilding the world after World War Two. And we’re in a much different state today, a much different economy, a much different world. So there has to be a reset. But what I try to assure them about is that there are a significant number of members of Congress on both sides of the aisle, Democrat and Republican, that still understand and believe that these strong partnerships and alliances with our European partners very necessary for the national security and for the sake of the United States, and so that’s that relationship is something that we’re going to continue to build into and continue to propagate and we’ll work through just like any any relationship, any close relationship, works through trouble, works through difficulties, differences of opinion with us. That’s the way it works. And so we’ll work through it, though, and we’ll come out on the other side stronger and better for it, in my opinion.
Alina Polyakova
So you don’t think the marriage is over?
Nathaniel Moran
I don’t think the marriage is over. I don’t even think we’re separated. I think we’re just going through a little counseling, and probably some needed marital counseling between the United States and Europe. But I think we’re going to come through this testing again much better for it, I really do. And the reset is going to get us all back on the same path and understanding that even though we’ve got differences, those differences pale in comparison to the strategic problems we have with China, with Russia, with North Korea, and with Iran and their proxies.
Alina Polyakova
Well, I think that’s a very good and optimistic note to end on, which I appreciate very much. It’s easy, I think, to get caught up in the problems without looking at the opportunities and the solutions that we can reach together with our European allies and also allies across the globe that the United States has, like no other country in the world. And that’s what really keeps us at the top, as a place that people look up to, that they want to come to, a country that leads, and so Congressman Moran, it was such a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you so much for sharing a little bit about your early life, your early visits to Russia. That part of the world, and for now, serving the American people and the people of Texas, first and foremost, in the US Congress, and I really appreciate your time today.
Nathaniel Moran
Thanks, Dr. Polyakova, it’s been a pleasure to be with you, and again, thank you for all the work you and CEPA are doing. Keep it up, and we’ll be with you. Thank you.
Alina Polyakova
Thank you.
